Anti-gay activists want to duck responsibility for anti-gay bullying and teen suicide. They occasionally veer into sheer lunacy, as when they claim gay teens are in despair because society is too accepting of homosexuality. But there’s one dodge I find particularly offensive. From the comments on NOM’s Facebook page:
The only people responsible for the suicides are the people that comitted them.
Nobody forces anyone to take his own life; ergo, only those who commit suicide are responsible.
Each person is responsible 4 their own actions. U make believe u r gay. God did not make u gay & He does not make u commit sucicide. nor does anyone else
I don’t know if gay is always a choice, or not. But suicide is ALWAYS a choice. The ultimate cop-out.
To be fair, I don’t see this from polished anti-gay leaders. But it’s all over the comments on their web pages and blogs. It’s a strange argument coming from conservatives, who generally believe teenagers require strict discipline and are still learning to make wise decisions. They think a 15-year-old like Billy Lucas can’t handle alcohol, a car, the vote, or serving in the military, but he’ll have no trouble hearing that in the core of his being he’s an abomination, a pervert, an affront to God.
We have good reason not to trust kids to their own judgment when it comes to the big stuff. The human brain isn’t mature until it’s 23 to 25 years old. Through magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), scientists are now able to track blood flow — and therefore activity — in the brains of adults and teens as they confront information and solve problems. The science is new, but some differences are clear:
Between childhood and adulthood, the brain’s “wiring diagram” becomes richer, more complex and more efficient, especially in the brain’s frontal lobe, or front outer mantle, which is the seat of such higher order functions as learning and socialization. An important part of the frontal lobes is the prefrontal cortex (PFC), which is often referred to as the “CEO” or executive of the brain and is responsible for such skills as setting priorities, organizing plans and ideas, forming strategies, controlling impulses, and allocating attention. New research suggests that the PFC is one of the last areas of the brain to fully mature…
[O]ne key MRI study found that when identifying emotions expressed on faces, teens more often activated their amygdala—the brain area that experiences fear, threat and danger— whereas adults more often activated their prefrontal cortex—the area of the brain linked more to reason and judgment—and performed better on the task. Behaviorally, the adult’s responses were more intellectual, the teens’ more from the gut. These findings and others suggest that although the plasticity and changeability of the adolescent brain are extremely well suited to meet the demands of teen life, guidance from parents and other adult institutions are essential while decision-making circuitry is being formed.
Impulse control, planning and decisionmaking are largely frontal cortex functions that are still maturing during adolescence…[O]ne reason adolescents may have difficulty inhibiting inappropriate impulses is that the circuitry needed for such control is not fully mature in early adolescence, thereby making such tasks relatively difficult.
In short, kids have less impulse control than adults, and they listen to their gut when processing emotional cues.
 Adults: prefrontal cortex |
 Teens: amygdala |
| Imagine then that you’re a gay teen, and you’re watching this Jimmy Swaggart broadcast with your parents, who have demonized gays all your life. Look at Swaggart’s face as he speaks. Take in his “emotional cues.” Hear your parents murmuring “Mm hmm. That’s right.”
Imagine reacting from your gut, not your intellect. Imagine your brain has only limited impulse control. Imagine all that — as the only life you know. |
Maggie Gallagher wants to know if she has blood on her hands. Jimmy Swaggart. Peter Sprigg. Tony Perkins. Bryan Fischer. Linda Harvey. Whether you’re calling us an abomination, or phrasing it more gently (like Maggie) and merely saying we can never feel the love that a man and a woman can. You all have blood on your hands.
<blockquote><blockquote>I have yet to see you explain how, however, all gays groupthink, yet you are gay and do not.</blockquote>That’s easy.<blockquote>You wrote almost half the posts on here; perhaps you are one of those closet cases who hates himself so much he tries to prove he’s not gay by attacking those who are open about it.</blockquote>Clearly, by demonstrating independent thought, I demonstrate that I am not gay, because all gays and lesbians think exactly the same way and anyone who disagrees is a self-loathing closet case.</blockquote>Bless your heart.
That’s easy.
Clearly, by demonstrating independent thought, I demonstrate that I am not gay, because all gays and lesbians think exactly the same way and anyone who disagrees is a self-loathing closet case.
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Bless your heart.
Yup, that sounds like Jack.
Interestingly enough, Lightning, you ought to consider this; Jack and I are complete opposites in almost every respect, religiously, ideologically, socially, and physically.
And yet he is one of the people I respect most.
Except for this last pesky part of that statement.
Again, though, you have demonstrated that you are incapable of criticizing or condemning anything that Rob Tisinai does, so this really isn’t a surprise to anyone. It’s just amusing to watch you backpedal and make a fool of yourself in order to avoid actually having to hold another gay or lesbian person accountable.
Really, this is destructive. Gays and lesbians will overlook child molestation and scream homophobia rather than acknowledge that another gay and lesbian person is doing something wrong. Indeed, we even have Lyra up above stating that she would rather children be sexually abused than to get a gay or lesbian person into trouble. It really is amazing that gays and lesbians would rather children be molested than to hold another gay or lesbian person accountable for their behavior.
Really? Which ones? Name them.
Having read through the comments, I must say that one commenter in particular reinforces my belief that everyone should be tested and required to disclose the results: Yes, I got the 2nd marshmallow or No, I ate the marshmallow the moment Mischel left the room.
I’ve learned that life is better when you stick with the folks who got the second marshmallow.
Sorry, Kenny, but “going along to get along” is what ultimately leads to your children being told all sorts of fun things about the Folsom Street Fair in school without your permission. Oddly enough, when there are no boundaries for acceptable behavior, people behave unacceptably.
One of these days you might be able to get that. But you and yours are still having a hard time making the leap between sexual irresponsibility and HIV infection because that would require you to criticize the behavior of other gay people, so I’m not expecting it any time soon.
@Michael-
I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term “Gish Gallop”, but it describes ND30′s style pretty well. It’s an informal term (named after creationist Duane Gish, a noted purveyor of the technique) for swamping one’s opponent in a flood of false, misleading and irrelevant data. The idea is to draw the opponent into responding to each datum individually, which will exhaust the opponent (since it often takes a paragraph to effectively refute a single sentence), prevent her from making an effective counter argument (since she’s spent all of her time and energy refuting the misinformation), and make it seem as though the opponent is only nibbling around the edges of the argument (because what about all of the other data that you didn’t refute?). Each refutation leads to yet another barrage since it’s much easier to throw out more erroneous BS than it is to debunk it.
Your approach of pointing out logical errors is an effective response to this style of argumentation, essentially saying “even if each individual thing you’re saying is true, it doesn’t actually support your conclusions.” Ultimately it is (as you’ve concluded here, and many others have concluded before you in attempting to have discussions with ND30) futile to engage with someone who’s not interested in an honest exploration of ideas. I just thought you, and others, might be interested in this term since recognizing the technique is helpful in avoiding being drawn into a pointless exchange.
Gays and lesbians will overlook child molestation and scream homophobia rather than acknowledge that another gay and lesbian person is doing something wrong.
____________________________
And the ouright lies continue . . .
SOCIAL WORKERS from the council were to blame for not investigating the situation. There is nothing in that article about the gay and lesbian community condemning the council for finally investigating and putting a stop to the horrible situation, or defending the creeps who abused those poor boys. Of the 24 comments, the one commentor who identified himself as homosexual wrote, “I am a homosexual and I think this is terrible, didn’t the social workers have any common sense?”
So Maggie, tell us, do you think Clint McCance should be fired? If so, wouldn’t that violate all of NOM’s rhetoric?
No, Dallas, even that’s not a fallacy. It would be a fallacy if he had said, “If so, that proves you don’t really believe what you and are therefore wrong.”
But he doesn’t say that. He’s still just asking her to explain a possible inconsistency. Before he commits the fallacy he has to say, “You apply your argument inconsistently and therefore your argument is wrong.”
“we even have Lyra up above stating that she would rather children be sexually abused than to get a gay or lesbian person into trouble”
_______________________________
Libel is against the law.
Oh dear, Mr 30,
Such respect and endorsement for the views of pedophile organisations.
ILGA, being a peak body, an umbrella organisation is not quite the Stalinist vanguard for kultur kampf you froth about. In the early days of the late 70s it was a loose confederation of anyone who wanted to join with virtually no scrutiny. For years it was under resourced, decentralised and rather disorganised. NAMBLA wasn’t the only pedophile group to take advantage. NAMBLA was kicked out in 1994, but IGA had already adopted the resolution:
Every child has the right to protection from sexual exploitation and abuse, including prostitution and involvement in pornography.
- by 1990. Whatever was to happen, NAMBLA and groups like it were toast. The issue of representation at the UN just forced thier hand.
…an attempt to offer you some history and context. I suspected I was wasting my time and it turns out I was right. So anyway, as you were saying:
ILGA was formed in 1978. NAMBLA was kicked out 16 years later. Now there is a screening process to prevent such groups joining. So much for being welcomed and endorsed for decades. The spin you put on events that NAMBLA was only kicked out for damage control is farsical, as if there was some arch controlling leadership caught in a Scooby Doo ending – “curses, we would’ve gotten away with NAMBLA inclusion if it wasn’t for that meddling Jesse Helms.”
ILGA back then was a disparate, not quite organisation of hundreds of groups world wide that didn’t have its act together, not the ogre of evil you like to portray. But then, history and context aren’t your strong points. I suspect I’m still wasting my time.
ND30 – Nope. Try again. Getting the 2nd marshmallow doesn’t indicate a personality who simply “goes along”. Again, life will be much more enjoyable if you can hold out for the second marshmallow and if you surround yourself with folks who did the same. As to the second half of your rant, I’ve never been confused about sexual irresponsibility or the transmission of HIV. Just as I’m not confused about sexual irresponsibility and illegitimacy or sexual irresponsibility and infertility.
@ Werdna, apropos Comment 58:
I wasn’t familiar with the term, but it’s precisely the way to describe our dear ND30. Thanks. I’ll slip it into my teaching.
But why didn’t they? They were afraid of being called “homophobic”.
Now who, exactly, was going to do that, if not the gay and lesbian community?
But unfortunately, we have demonstrated admittance that the gay and lesbian community does not acknowledge logical fallacies even when they are committed.
Next:
Such respect and endorsement for the views of pedophile organisations.
Feel free to dispute their conclusions, especially the direct quotations from ILGA positions and resolutions on the subject that support their case.
Oh please. Only an organization of complete and total idiots would have missed an organization whose very title celebrates “man-boy love” for sixteen years. If you want to claim gay and lesbian people are so ignorant and stupid that they can’t recognize child molesters, go right ahead.
I was right. The subtleties of history and context have been lost on you. Your choice of authority is NAMBLA. Nice. I’ve attempted to convey to you a sense of historical context previously about age of consent and its complications but it was ignored then and evidence suggests it will be again if I reiterate. If you look up information on the UN Convention On The Rights Of The Child you wont find a definitive declaration on what the age of consent should be. You get this from UNICEF:
There aren’t any international laws or guidelines on the age of consent, though the Convention on the Rights of the Child says that you have the right to be protected from all forms of sexual abuse and exploitation. In addition, the Committee on the Rights of the Child, which keeps track of how children’s rights are being implemented around the world, argues that countries with a low legal age of consent should raise it.
What’s too low? Raise it to what? It’s the same general language endorsing the rights of children you can glean from the ILGA quotes in that NAMBLA document.
I find it hard to credit you’re so gullible as to be taken in by the sly use of rhetoric by NAMBLA to tether itself to a wider cause of civil rights as a means to establish legitimacy for themselves.
I’m glad to see you’ve retracted the claim it was multiple decades, but you’re still hooked on facile oversimplification. Yes, NAMBLA got in at the ground floor at the founding of ILGA, using libertarian language that allowed itself to make alliance with some on the left. This can be better appreciated if you take time to understand the zeitgeist of the whole movement of sexual liberation from the late 60s and through to the 70s.
The politics of ILGA were very idealistic and inclusive. There were no gatekeepers to see or miss a group like NAMBLA. They used the right language for the time and they invited themselves in. They were not without controversy though, even at the outset. From the NAMBLA entry on Wikipedia: In 1980 a group called the “Lesbian Caucus – Lesbian & Gay Pride March Committee” distributed a hand-out urging women to split from the annual New York City Gay Pride March because the organizing committee had supposedly been dominated by NAMBLA and its supporters.
In a large scale international organisation set up with grassroots idealism it can take 16 years to sort out problems like NAMBLA. There isn’t now and wasn’t then the sort of Stalinist leadership you might imagine. Expelling a group from ILGA took an 80% super majority of the membership. It had to be done constitutionally and I can well see how something like this would’ve been left on the back burner until it became a pressing matter. The matter is in the past now. I’ve no doubt the remnants of NAMBLA had their own take on their history with ILGA. If you wish to concur with a pedophile’s version of history, then so be it.
You constantly rely on individual points of view as representative of “the gay and lesbian community.” Why not cite this one? It’s from 1994 also. It presents the case against NAMBLA and was published in The Washington Blade, Southern Voice (Atlanta), and The Lesbian and Gay News-Telegraph (Missouri).
It looks like my link in the last paragraph didn’t work. I’ll try again.
But why didn’t they? They were afraid of being called “homophobic”.
Now who, exactly, was going to do that, if not the gay and lesbian community?
__________________________
Who would do that? Who would protest child molesters being punished? Possibly the perverts at NAMBLA, but absolutely not the gay and lesbian community at large.
Anyhow . . .
Sorry, ND30.
I am not going to give you the satisfaction that you apparently want.
I’m not going to tell you you should kill yourself, or say I wish you would die.
I’m not going to wish AIDS (or any other ailment) upon you.
I’m not going to suggest you might be so angry because you are HIV positive.
I’m not going to accuse you of not being gay.
I’m just going to ignore you from this point forward.
Goodbye.
High-five to Lightning Baltimore
That is truly entertaining, coming from individuals such as yourself who bought and pushed said rhetoric for sixteen years as part of ILGA and are still making excuses for it today.
But then again, I think I know why that happened.
That really says it all. Sexual abuse and molestation of children is normalized in the gay community. You could not find 80% of gays who would say that sexually abusing and molesting children was wrong. Groups that openly advocated sexually abusing and molesting children did not constitute a “pressing matter” for the gay and lesbian community, and thus parliamentary procedure took precedence over the welfare of countless children.
Until, of course, Jesse Helms brought it up, at which point people like Richard Rosendall, who had supported and endorsed NAMBLA and ILGA for sixteen years, suddenly found sexually abusing and molesting children to be a problem. Amazing how conveniently that occurred when it was publicized, and astonishing that the gay and lesbian community kept so quiet and well-behaved about the pedophiles that they were supporting and endorsing.
And that leads us to Lightning’s question:
For the gay and lesbian community at large, child molestation is not a “pressing matter” — but protecting pedophiles certainly appears to be.
Good God, what a boring thread. North Dallas Thirty is up to his usual. It’s just as boring as ever.
NDT hasn’t even addressed cannibalism, another issue the GLBT community just blatantly ignores. (‘Cause we’re for it!)
So true! Known homosexual Jeffrey Dahmer was a cannibal; therefore, the gay and lesbian community supports and endorses canniballism.
Thank you, Lightning Baltimore. We all need to address our complicity in this.
[...] let’s face it, teenagers are kind of like barbarians. I made that point here (though not using that word) in this post explaining why folks like Jimmy Swaggart, Peter [...]