I’ve coined a new term, “collapsible thinking,” to describe arguments so bizarre that you don’t need to bring in facts, evidence, or research to debunk them. They collapse on their own, under the weight of their own nonsense.
Here’s the first entry in the series:
EVERY CIVILIZATION THAT HAS ACCEPTED HOMOSEXUALITY AS NORMAL HAS FAILED.
I pulled that from a random commenter on a message board, but we’ve heard it from people like presidential contender Mike Huckabee as well:
There’s never been a civilization that has rewritten what marriage and family means and survived.
I’ve seen this bit of wisdom over and over. The argument is flawed in so many ways (Mike, nearly every civilization redefines marriage and family — that’s one way of distinguishing civilizations from each other), but I want to get down to the deepest layer of stupidity by pointing out this:
Every civilization eventually fails.
Okay, I skipped a couple steps. First I ought to point out that a number of countries and several US states have included us in their definition of marriage, and they still survive. The only rejoinder I can imagine would be that these doomsayers aren’t talking about recent stuff. No, they’re thinking much deeper and taking a historical view.
In which case, of course, taking a deep historical view…
Every civilization eventually fails.
- Every civilization that has accepted homosexuality has failed.
- Every civilization that has rejected homosexuality has failed.
- Every civilization that has cared for its crippled children has failed.
- Every civilization that has encouraged literacy has failed.
- Every civilization that depended on clean running water has failed.
Yep, take a long enough view, and every civilization has failed. It doesn’t take much to refute Mike Huckabee on this. His thinking is already collapsible.
I love it when they get onto the fall of rome, taking a vague sentence out of Gibbon (whom, I think, had his own issues on this subject)and, wielding elgalabulus (sp) as a Mighty Club O’ truth, “proving” that Rome fell because it embraced homosexuality.
At that point, i always like to point out that Rome had embraced Christianity for 150 years when it finally fell. So you can add that on to your list: Every Civilazation that has embraced Christianity has failed.
But the stupid and the ignorance don’t stop there. We know that homsexuality in myriad forms was present in the great greek civilization of the Mediterranean, of which Rome was inheritor, and that for these civilizatrions, it was not seen as a moral issue at all, but strictly cultural.
So homsexuality was quite present in Rome for some 800 years, as it was in the greek civilizations of prvious centuries, till its surrender by the catholic Pope to the barbarians.
but Rome didn’t end when the catholic Pope surrendered. It had long before moved to the east, to byzantium, where it existed for another 800 years, until the eastern Roman Empire, which its citizens called both Rome and Constantinople, fell to the Ottoman turks.
1600 years is not a bad run for any empire.
These people aren’t stupid. they are morally and intellectually lazy and indifferent.
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The Roman empire was one of the most powerful and historically-significant empires of all time, and for most of its history it was accepting of homosexuality. The Roman Empire only fell after it fell under the sway of Christian rulers who began to demonise our community.
If you look at history the Roman empire appears to have collapsed for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with homosexuality. The main thing, I think, is that the Roman empire was “too big to fail”.
The Egyptian civilization also collapsed–well, maybe “deflated” is a better term–and, in spite of having studied it quite a bit, I couldn’t tell you what the Egyptians thought of homosexuality. It still had nothing to do with the decline of their society. The same is true of the Mayans. Then there were the Aztecs. Again I don’t know whether the Aztecs “embraced” or disapproved of homosexuality, but whether they did or not doesn’t have diddly to do with the collapse of their civilization.
you’ve just reminded of a quote from fight club, I’m sure I’m paraphrasing it.
“On a long enough timeline the mortality rate is 100%”
Not to be a broken record, but it might be also worth noting that quite a few “civilizations” that have embraced homosexuality appear to be flourishing. Scandinavia (specifically Sweden and Norway), Canada, and the Netherlands are highly prosperous countries, came out of the recession far better than most other countries, will soon be back in the black, have healthcare, lower crime rates, lower divorce rates, etc., than the US (which doesn’t embrace homosexuality . . .)
What about Native American tribes who accepted the two-spirit or Berdache? I wouldn’t exactly say their culture and civilization failed. Excellent article by the way. You are an inspiring thinker!
Real reasons for social collapse from Jared Diamond:
Diamond lists eight factors which have historically contributed to the collapse of past societies:
1. Deforestation and habitat destruction
2. Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
3. Water management problems
4. Overhunting
5. Overfishing
6. Effects of introduced species on native species
7. Overpopulation
8. Increased per-capita impact of people
Further, he says four new factors may contribute to the weakening and collapse of present and future societies:
1. Anthropogenic climate change
2. Buildup of toxins in the environment
3. Energy shortages
4. Full human utilization of the Earth’s photosynthetic capacity
Let’s see here….nope no gayz on the list!!
Hi Miriam, I definitely agree with your Diamond list..Why do so many humans disregard the fact that Mother Earth cannot sustain the destruction that we impose upon her? Our world is as alive as we are and without her we are not!!! Wake up everybody!!
I would also like to add that the very entities responsible for the collapse of a society also include Religous leaders, government, and corporations..Greed, Power, Conformity…They would love to see the total annihilation of our own free will and individuality!!!
I think the Aztecs and the Mayans collapsed because they unfortunately got in the way of those poor, poor Europeans invaders who destroyed them.